Questions that Drive my Thoughts

on 25 March 2009

The following questions are not merely academic or a philosophical exercise, they are instead serious questions and reservations that I have within my own faith. I doubt anyone can answer them, but Hey I'll throw them out there. These are questions that I have had for a while (since 12 for one of them) but I have been able to put them off. This past week they have re-flamed in force and I figure I would ask them here.

1. How can God be Perfect? Given the eternal nature of progression, and given that the plan of happiness doesn't end, how is there an end to growth? I am not saying that God is not Great and Powerful, nor is he a mere mortal, but is He really Perfect? Is he an equal with his God? Are they equally perfect in stagnation? Or is this earth, and our lives, His test of growth just as our lives here our test of growth?

2.It is said that the purpose of us coming to earth was to learn by faith rather than by perfect knowledge. If we had perfect knowledge in the pre-existence, and after this life we have perfect knowledge, then there is no need for faith except here on this earth. I have been told that 1. we are here to learn faith and 2. to obtain a body which is necessary for the eternal progression. I understand point 2. but point 1. We are here to learn faith? if given that after this life (well after judgment) we will be placed on our respective kingdoms, we have been taught that there is no progression between kingdoms (I have beef with this as well, but more on that later), those who are in the Celestial Kingdom will have the perfect knowledge based off of the fact that they will live on this perfected seeer stone. They are those who learned to live by faith. What good will faith be to them when they have perfect knowledge? unless that knowledge is not perfect but instead is limited and striving towards perfection? see question 1. Those in the Tel. and Ter. Kingdoms are those who didn't learn to live by faith but they would be the ones who would need it most because their kingdom (i am assuming here) will not be a glorious seeer stone and thus they would have no perfect knowledge.

3. Movement between kingdoms. Given the need for eternal progression and God's love for us, how could he inhibit our eternal progression between kingdoms? How can he allow our eternal life to be truncated in this eternal plan of happiness?

4. Angels, In the OT Angels are often seen visiting the people, were these us in our pre-earth form? were they those who had died before? (then how did an angel visit Adam) or are they those who lived in the generation of God who minister unto him because their progression was cut off? The angels of the OT had bodies (see Sodom and Gomorrah) and we did not in the pre-earth life. So is this an eternal law from the First God, this division of eternal roles of those who failed to achieve exaltation? If this is an eternal law of the first God, then there must be some reason why HE has the power to make such an eternal law either because he has more power because he has progressed farther than his children and their generations and so is able to make the rules, or because he is the First among equals and that once you reach God Head you are equal with God and then the community of Gods has created and enforce this rule of separation between kingdoms. Why? If they love us more than anything, then why would we be forced into oppression?

5. If God is equal to his father and the generations before I can accept his "perfection" however, why then would there be eternal progression without the ability to progress between kingdoms? If God isn't equal to his Father, thus demanding the eternal progression, then how can He be perfect? If God is not Perfect (albeit far closer to it than we are) than He is acting in the best interest of the majority of people on the earth. Am I on the outside of that? Am I outside of God's realm of Love? Am I outside of his top priority? If so then why should I make him my priority? Why should I give love to a father who thinks of me less than his other children? I say that he thinks less of me because of the ambiguities in the scriptures concerning homosexuality. This Church was built upon the Need, the necessity and the ability to have Continuing Revelation. For more information on this facet, this need for Continuing revelation I turn to the Joseph Smith Lesson Manual Chapter 10 Prayer and Personal Revelation found here.

“Seeing that the Lord has never given the world to understand by anything heretofore revealed that he had ceased forever to speak to his creatures when sought unto in a proper manner, why should it be thought a thing incredible that he should be pleased to speak again in these last days for their salvation?

“Perhaps you may be surprised at this assertion, that I should say for the salvation of his creatures in these last days, since we have already in our possession a vast volume of his word which he has previously given. But you will admit that the word spoken to Noah was not sufficient for Abraham, or it was not required of Abraham to leave the land of his nativity and seek an inheritance in a strange country upon the word spoken to Noah, but for himself he obtained promises at the hand of the Lord and walked in that perfection that he was called the friend of God. Isaac, the promised seed, was not required to rest his hope upon the promises made to his father, Abraham, but was privileged with the assurance of his approbation in the sight of heaven by the direct voice of the Lord to him.

“If one man can live upon the revelations given to another, might not I with propriety ask, why the necessity, then, of the Lord speaking to Isaac as he did, as is recorded in the 26th chapter of Genesis? For the Lord there repeats, or rather promises again, to perform the oath which he had previously sworn unto Abraham. And why this repetition to Isaac? Why was not the first promise as sure for Isaac as it was for Abraham? Was not Isaac Abraham’s son? And could he not place implicit confidence in the word of his father as being a man of God? Perhaps you may say that he was a very peculiar man and different from men in these last days; consequently, the Lord favored him with blessings peculiar and different, as he was different from men in this age. I admit that he was a peculiar man and was not only peculiarly blessed, but greatly blessed. But all the peculiarity that I can discover in the man, or all the difference between him and men in this age, is that he was more holy and more perfect before God and came to him with a purer heart and more faith than men in this day.

“The same might be said on the subject of Jacob’s history. Why was it that the Lord spake to him concerning the same promise after he had made it once to Abraham and renewed it to Isaac? Why could not Jacob rest contented upon the word spoken to his fathers?

“When the time of the promise drew nigh for the deliverance of the children of Israel from the land of Egypt, why was it necessary that the Lord should begin to speak to them? The promise or word to Abraham was that his seed should serve in bondage and be afflicted four hundred years, and after that they should come out with great substance. Why did they not rely upon this promise and, when they had remained in Egypt in bondage four hundred years, come out without waiting for further revelation, but act entirely upon the promise given to Abraham that they should come out? …

“… I may believe that Enoch walked with God. I may believe that Abraham communed with God and conversed with angels. I may believe that Isaac obtained a renewal of the covenant made to Abraham by the direct voice of the Lord. I may believe that Jacob conversed with holy angels and heard the word of his Maker, that he wrestled with the angel until he prevailed and obtained a blessing. I may believe that Elijah was taken to heaven in a chariot of fire with fiery horses. I may believe that the saints saw the Lord and conversed with him face to face after his resurrection. I may believe that the Hebrew church came to Mount Zion and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels. I may believe that they looked into eternity and saw the Judge of all, and Jesus, the Mediator of the new covenant.

“But will all this purchase an assurance for me, or waft me to the regions of eternal day with my garments spotless, pure, and white? Or, must I not rather obtain for myself, by my own faith and diligence in keeping the commandments of the Lord, an assurance of salvation for myself? And have I not an equal privilege with the ancient saints? And will not the Lord hear my prayers and listen to my cries as soon as he ever did to theirs if I come to him in the manner they did?”

To me this demonstrates the need for continuing revelation even if it is the same revelation, and even from Father to Son. Everything we have on Homosexuality comes from Moses. 4000 Years ago. (everything from the Spirit that is, and not from personal feeling like SWK in Miracle of Forgivness) Why, given the NEED, the Necessity of continuing revelation from Father to Son to Grandson of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, even though it is the same revelation, is there nothing given to our current prophet, seeer, and revelator concerning homosexuality? Option 1. The revelation is the same as in Moses, if so, why then wouldn't it be given again? Why wouldn't it be reiterated as revelation in this our current day and age where homosexuality is rampant and the crimes of the flesh abound. Why wouldn't the Lord reveal that revelation to the FP especially because we have a new Prophet and a new generation? Option 2. Official Declaration 3. declaring the eternal law of Celestial Homosexual Marriage is ready and waiting in the wings, however it isn't given because the members of the Church and of the World are not ready for it. In which case, The LORD is putting those others above me. I feel as if I am Laban except I didn't do anything wrong. I am here to perish so that a whole nation won't dwindle in unbelief. How can a Perfect God push me aside for the "greater good?" How can a God of Perfect Love, let me fall by the way side in order to help the 90 and 9? But also, given option 1. of the sinful twisted nature of Homosexuality, Why then does God not tell me such things? why am I to rely upon the words of Moses that are ambiguous, fulfilled, ancient when we have 1. Modern day Prophets, and 2. I have the Gift of the Holy Ghost which the children of Israel did not have?

I know that my homosexuality is not a choice, it is not a wrinkle in the system. I believe that It was ordained by God (see my post on that here)
"And in nothing doth man aoffend God, or against none is his bwrath ckindled, save those who dconfess not his hand in all things, and eobey not his commandments."
I have to believe that there is a reason why I was made this way and I have come to two conclusions 1. This is a part of My intelligence or Spirit and was known in the pre-earth life and will continue in the eternities, in which case I believe that Official Declaration 3 is a Gospel Principle. or 2. This is a trial I have been given. If 2. then why? If 2. then that means that my experiance here is meant for something, for some purpose, that there is some lesson that is crucial to my eternal progression that I need to learn. The only lesson I can think of is either 1. compassion for those who struggle with things I dont understand (which as a God would be useful If I weren't perfect but instead progressing) or a need to bridle all of my passions and learn to live a life without a companion although with the possibility of children adopted into me through my knowledge (which wouldn't, given the need for a Male and Female companionship, prepare me for life as a God. I would then be living with a companion (against my earthly training) and producing children (also against my earthy training)

So I come to the following conclusions. That I am Laban, the one who is able to be cast aside for the survival of the 90 and 9 by God. If so, where then is Christ the one who will leave the 90 and 9 and find me? or is that the job of the prophets? in which case why is there silence from them and the heavens?

Why is there silence from the Heavens?

2 comments:

Scott said...

Wow.

1) The Sunday School answer (as I understand it) is that "eternal progression" actually means "eternal increase", i.e. creating spirit children and worlds for them to inhabit. God has achieved perfection in knowledge and power and righteousness, and He enjoys an eternal increase in joy as his posterity grows.

2) I think your entire question is based on a faulty premise. We didn't have perfect knowledge in the pre-existence. Obviously we would have had a sure knowledge of the reality of God, etc., but there were plenty of things we didn't know, that we could not learn except through mortal experience. Faith is not the only thing we have to learn here. The knowledge and experience (and even faith) that we gain here will benefit those who obtain celestial glory, and in fact are steps toward the perfect knowledge that we hope to eventually have.

3. I read carefully through D&C 76 and didn't see any language that specifically indicates that progression from one kingdom to a higher one is impossible (though it's clearly stated that sons of perdition have no chance of redemption). I didn't take the time to thoroughly research the issue. Is it possible that this is one of those things that we assume we know and that gets taught as "doctrine" but that has really never been fully revealed? I don't know.

4. D&C 129 says that an "angel" is (technically) a resurrected being, but that non-resurrected (presumably either pre- or post-mortality) spirits also act as messengers for God. Obviously the "angels" of the Old Testament would have been the latter, as Christ hadn't been resurrected yet (so nobody else had, either).

This could be problematic in the case of the Sodom & Gomorrah story, since we are told that the "angels" had their feet washed by Lot and also ate the feast that he prepared for them. A bodiless spirit would not have been able to do those things. The footnote indicates that the hebrew that has been translated as "angels" could mean "messenger", which could mean that these weren't supernatural visitors, but simply mortal men doing God's work. That's the only explanation that lets all the pieces fit together. I'm not aware of any other OT scripture that indicates a physical body for a heavenly messenger (but I'm not a biblical scholar).

There's no doctrine or even non-canonical statements that I'm aware of that indicate that we've ever received any visits from heavenly beings who are not of this earth. (If a being is from God's "generation" that would make him our Heavenly Uncle, right?).

5. As we progress in your questions we're accepting that some of the premises in your earlier questions are true, so by this time we're assuming that God is not perfect, that He is subservient to His Father, that His actions are for the benefit of the majority (but that He is willing to accept collateral damage, because He isn't perfect) and that you are one who has slipped through the cracks.

That's a lot of assumption, and I don't buy a lot of it. You cite the lack of revelation concerning homosexuality as evidence of God's lack of interest in you, but a more plausible explanation for that lack (in my opinion) is a failure by His mortal prophets to approach Him with the issue or to listen or understand the answers that He gives.

God isn't going to force His will or His word on the Church, and He can only get His prophets to preach what they are willing to believe comes from Him. If Official Declaration 3 is "waiting in the wings", why assume that it is God holding it back? Perhaps it's not that the church isn't ready, but that the prophet (or his counselors, or the twelve) is not.

Thankfully, in addition to prophets, we have personal revelation (as you've noted). If God can't get the word out to the church that gay marriage is okay, He can still speak to a beloved gay son through the spirit and tell him to find a husband and raise a family in righteousness.

Or, depending on what is true, He can speak to His gay son and tell him to be steadfast in living a life of celibacy. I don't want to be seen as promoting one choice over the other--I'm just saying that God can overcome the lack of church-wide revelation by revealing truth to the individual.

You are not Laban, and if you are the one who has gotten separated from the ninety and nine you might consider whether it's because you've wandered off on your own. However it's happened, though, God knows you and cares about you, and He will never abandon or forsake you. Believe that, and feel His arms around you as His voice whispers in your ear that He loves you.

Aly said...

These are some questions I've struggled with myself, albeit not with such depth. I recommend C.S. Lewis's books on religion (including "Mere Christianity") for further insight into ourselves and the nature of God. What I've concluded is that God loves every one of His children. PERIOD. You, me, even that obnoxious freecreditreport.com commercial guy. He is THE perfect parent. I know this probably sounds like a trite, recited 'Sunday school' response, but it is absolutely crucial to every important answer. I am convinced that he does everything out of love. That's my personal meaning of life: to become like our Heavenly Father means to become loving despite everything that's working to push us the other direction.

Post a Comment